Guest Bio:
Carmen Muley is the founder of Paragon Social Commerce. She has extensive experience with Social Commerce and Live Shopping. She started working with Live Shopping Events already back in 2016, when she was living in Shanghai. Now she is using her expertise to drive Social Commerce forward in Europe.
Episode Summary:
The conversation explores the growing trend of live shopping, particularly in Europe, where brands are focusing on building connections with consumers through education rather than direct sales. This shift highlights the importance of engaging consumers and addressing their questions about products.
Takeaways:
- Brands will have to start doing live shopping.
- Consumers are getting more used to this.
- Brands are not really pushing the sale so much.
- They try to connect more with the consumer.
- Explain to them whatever questions they may have.
- This is interesting for them because…
- Building connections is key in the market.
- Education on products is becoming essential.
- The approach differs across markets.
- Live shopping is a growing trend in Europe.
Full Transcript:
Moritz Schröder (00:02.471)
Carmen, super excited to be talking with you today. You are based in Spain. You run a social commerce agency out of Spain, but you are actually one of the probably few people out of Europe and the Western world that have been very, very early on.
a proposer of social commerce and live shopping in particular, because you got to learn about it before most of us, because you actually were living and working in Spain, sorry, in China in that field already back in 2015. Can you walk me through how you ended up working in China first of all, and then how you ended up working in live shopping?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (00:47.04)
So first of all, thank you very much for having me here today. I’m so happy to share with you my story about life shopping. And yes, as you mentioned, I started with this in 2015 in China. And I would say it was a kind of a funny story, right? I went to China first on exchange with university for the first time in 2013. And then I went back again in 2015.
I was there, I’m a very curious person, I’m always learning about new things. And I had some Chinese friends at that time and they told me like, come on, hey, we’re doing this thing about live streaming. Would you like to check it out and see how it works? And maybe you want to try it out as well. And then I went to a studio in Hangzhou and there were like all these small rooms with live streamers doing stuff. And I said, okay, this sounds interesting. Like what?
what do I actually need to do? And they explained to me that this was for Chinese online TV called SunTi TV and all that I had to do was basically being live every day for four hours non-stop entertaining the audience. So I was like, okay, I think I can do that. We’ll see how it goes. And so I started working doing that and it was just like that, you know, I had a friend that was involved in the world and
told me if I wanted to try it out. And basically what I had to do every day was just to go live and just do entertaining stuff. It could be anything, like anything that I wanted to. I also would have like this long chat running. And of course the chat was in Chinese most of the time. So there were many things I could not read at that time. But then of course all the Chinese users that were watching me were also like asking questions in English.
that I could respond and it was very interesting. It was not live shopping per se at that moment. It was more like basically live streaming and I don’t know if you’re familiar with TikTok live that you can actually give donations to the streamers. So it was that kind of live streaming at that time. And then after that, my next experience with live streaming was live shopping.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (03:09.709)
And it was the first ever live shopping event with AliExpress on their 11.11, which is the single say in 2016. But the experience at that time was as well very, very different, also happened in China. And I’ll tell you a little bit more about it. Basically, at that time, us as hosts, we could not interact with the audience or anything. So it was like a whole play. We were…
on a stage and we were basically acting things out. And of course we knew, we had a script, we had things that we knew that we had to do and we had the products and everything, we had the coupons with us, but we could not see what was going on in the chat, we could not interact directly with the audience. So it’s very, very different from what we know of live shopping right now.
Moritz Schröder (04:03.195)
So was that in Chinese? Were you already fluent enough to be able to participate in such an event on such a large scale as the 11.11 event 2016 for Alibaba?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (04:16.054)
So actually this event was hosted for Spain and Latin America, so we did it in Spanish. The thing is that we were in China. Yeah, and so like the only, let’s say strange thing was the time. We had to do everything like in the middle of the night because we were doing that for Spain and Latin America and obviously the time difference is huge. So that was like the only like, I would say difficulty.
Moritz Schröder (04:21.814)
okay. Convenient.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (04:44.69)
in terms of the live streaming. Of course, there was a massive team that was taking care of everything. We were four different hosts and it was a very, very interesting experience.
Moritz Schröder (05:00.357)
That seems like such a huge jump as well from 2015 where you were unfamiliar with live streaming even to then be part of basically the largest live shopping event ever hosted up to that point in China.
how did that transition come about? mean, I guess not everyone who tumbled into live streaming back in 2015 ended up having the same trajectory as you ended up having. Was it also a little bit of the benefit of maybe looking Western and they wanted to take advantage of that because…
As I know a lot of Asian people love looking at people a little bit more Western looking or was it connections that you had built in that area? How did that play out for you?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (05:46.443)
Good.
How did that happen? So basically, as I mentioned, I am a very curious person and I’m always learning new things. So in 2015, there was this event called Ali Cloud and I just went to that event to learn more about the cloud and all the things that were happening at that time in tech. And I ended up stopping by the Alibaba booth.
and talking to some people there. Because they were doing lots of interesting things, and facial recognition, and so many things that for us in Europe would be like, wow, they’re so far away in China. And so I started talking to them. We exchanged contacts. And then a few weeks later, they got in touch like Carmen He.
We’ve seen that you’ve been doing live streaming before. We’re going to be doing this and this and this and we’d like to count on you. We’re doing this for the Spanish market. This is how it’s going to go. Would you be interested in taking this chance and, you know, like host with us this event?” And I was like, yeah, of course. Like, let’s try it. Why not? This sounds interesting. It’s fun. And I was living in Hangzhou, so I just had to go to the headquarters and…
I just thought it would be a great opportunity to see what it was like and of course they were looking for Spanish speakers because this event was going to be specifically for, as I mentioned, Spain and Latin America. And that’s basically how it happened. You need to be at the right place at the right time.
Moritz Schröder (07:43.706)
And were you aware of the scale that this event was going to have, or did you think it’s just going to be a small event where they’re basically trying out a new feature? Was it clear to you how much of an audience you would have when you’re going live?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (08:02.77)
I had no idea that we were making history that day. Yeah, no, like I really had no idea. I knew that it was gonna be live, so I just told my family and my friends in Spain and Latin America, like, hey, I’m gonna be live, like, check this out. We’re going to be like giving coupons and everything. yeah, that was like, all I knew is that I could share with people that we were going to be doing that.
Moritz Schröder (08:05.657)
hahahaha
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (08:30.866)
It was actually on YouTube for quite a long time now, but I think they like, it’s not available anymore. And so people could go back and like revisit it. And yeah, it was, it was a fun experience and very interesting. And of course I did not know that that was going to be something that in the long term, it come to this. Like I, it’s been 10 years now. I’m still working in live shopping and social commerce. Like.
I would have never imagined that that would be like that.
Moritz Schröder (09:03.938)
So this was the first time doing live shopping. What was it that then got you hooked for as long as 10 years now and made you pursue a career in this area?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (09:15.764)
So the thing is that I lived in China for seven years and it was so early on that I actually learned about this. And I know a lot of Chinese people and Chinese brands and they’ve been doing live streaming for such a long time now. And I came back to Spain in early 2020, right when the pandemic happened. And I was like, okay, what is it? What have I learned in China that
is not here yet. What is something that makes me different from the rest of the world here? And so I was thinking and I said, okay, so actually live shopping is something that is not really established yet, but it’s so big in China. So for sure it’s going to come to this market at some point. And so I just started talking about it. And then I also launched my own e-commerce store.
It was an activewear brand for women. And I started doing live streaming as well on, not in my e-commerce store, I was doing it on Instagram. And so I saw as well that when I was presenting the products, the users would purchase those products later on on the website. So I was like, okay, I am proving to myself that this thing that I was doing in China that was working is also working here. Like, okay, people don’t really know about this format.
but it’s so informative and when people are interested in the product, they’re coming back to the website to actually purchase because at that time, that was 2021 when I was doing live streaming on my Instagram, my brand’s Instagram, they could not purchase directly from the live streaming. But then I saw that they were going to the website and purchasing those products that I had presented. So I was like, okay, this is cool.
Like maybe it’s not super functional in a way like people cannot yet purchase from this live streaming, but it’s interesting for them because otherwise they would not purchase these products. So that’s, that’s like, started working on it and I just did different things. Then I became the CEO of a social commerce agency in the UK. And with that agency, we went as well to the Mexico, which is a
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (11:40.553)
a really well-known digital marketing conference in Europe. And I did the first ever live shopping event on stage on a commercial conference on a trade show. And so from that live streaming that we did, we got 700 leads. So that was amazing as well. And at that time, like I was not selling any physical products because we were an agency. So we were like selling social commerce services, of course.
And, and it was amazing how I got everyone hooked in the audience and how they were so interested in what we were doing and how they got into the live streaming. could show them how it was working and all that. And then we also became partners for TikTok shop in the UK when it first launched in 2023. So, you know, like I would say that I’ve just been growing and developing myself with the market.
Then fast forward to, well, last year I launched as well a live shopping marketplace here in Spain. Built it from zero from the ground up. I was with that project for one year. It was called Stream Plaza, a really complex project because you need to work with brands and you need to like onboard them and you need to explain to them like how the whole live shopping thing works. And then of course, bringing all the…
all the clients in. It was such an amazing experience. then, so when I left this project, I launched Parabon Social Commerce. And now we focus basically on live shopping, social commerce and TikTok shop. And at this stage regarding TikTok shop, we’re partners here in Spain, in the UK and in Germany. So it’s like, that’s, that’s been my journey so far. Just working with brands, doing things myself, learning.
Moritz Schröder (13:32.862)
Right.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (13:38.553)
like every little detail and yeah.
Moritz Schröder (13:43.382)
Yeah, I can totally see how you had a unique skill set after you came back from China and you were able to apply that and really put it to the market. Also, you were kind of at the right place at the right time coming back from China where live social hopping was already exploding and then having the insight that this was only a matter of time until it will catch on here.
But if we go back to the origin a little bit in China, after this initial Alibaba event back in 2016, you continued working in that field. Did you then end up getting a lot of on the job training in life selling? Was it mostly learned on the job because it was such a new and exciting industry? How did that actually look like for you?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (14:33.703)
So the thing is that basically what we had to do was to sell things. We had to be on camera and just showcase the products and push the sale. But then I pivoted after a while of doing live streaming myself and I was the one that looked, I was looking for live sellers for the company. So I was not doing it myself anymore but I was looking for other people and then we were training them to do live streaming.
Moritz Schröder (15:01.533)
Okay, gotcha. So initially you were very early on as a seller, but then you kind of pivoted a little bit inside the company and inside the industry to find the people and the talent that would do well.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (15:09.539)
Yeah.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (15:13.754)
Yeah.
Moritz Schröder (15:14.644)
What would you be looking for? mean, if you try to spot someone who’s doing really well on camera, but also really well in selling products and actually moving that product out to the consumer, what were initial indicators that you could spot instantly that would indicate that somebody would do very well in that?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (15:33.936)
So there were like actually would depend on the client, of course. Chinese people really take care of like the face, so to say, like, so who’s the right person to put in front of the camera. So we basically need to look for somebody that’s basically good looking and that’s going to be appealing for the camera. That’s like the first cut. And then we need to look for somebody that’s used to being in front of the camera and that is not
like scared to like talk and interact. That’s the second cut and it’s super, super important because it happens many times that there are people that want to do things, but they don’t know how to engage or how to talk to the camera and they get nervous or they get frozen or something like that. So that’s like a no-go. It’s not going to work because you need to like entertain, but you need to push the sales. So you need to be like very active and very energetic. And so you need that. And then
Of course, we were looking for people who were good at sales. Because if you know how to sell the product, then of course you’re going to get more sales. Those were like the three main things that we were looking for. And then as we moved on with like, you know, time went by, we were looking for people who actually had experience, who had done it before. But in China, as of today, there’s so many people doing that. Like there are…
places basically where they’re just training people to do it and to go live and to sell products and and all that and actually Hangzhou which is where I was based initially it’s one of the zones where the government is actually like pushing this forward
Moritz Schröder (17:19.646)
So do you mean the local government of that province or the national government decided that that should be a hotspot for live shopping?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (17:23.001)
Yeah.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (17:28.12)
Yeah, no, no. So the local governments, they like when they spot a trend that they want to invest on, they just push and they build on the thing. So in this case in Hangzhou, they invested on this live shopping trend. And there is an area in which there are many companies that are just doing live streaming and live shopping. And you get all the companies there and all the hosts there and so many things going on.
Moritz Schröder (17:57.436)
Okay, so they built out studios, I would assume, and then also had training facilities. What else is there in terms of infrastructure that is relevant and that such a political decision could facilitate?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (18:11.582)
It’s just the way that China operates. Once they see that there is something that’s working and that’s going to bring money in, they just go full on on it.
Moritz Schröder (18:22.055)
Okay, but in terms of infrastructure, like what would be a political decision that then further facilitates a boom in live shopping in that area?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (18:31.492)
I’m not sure I understand the question, like in English. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Moritz Schröder (18:36.637)
Like you said, it was a political decision that they wanted to facilitate that. Like what exactly did they do to facilitate that?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (18:44.088)
They just allowed for spaces, like they open spaces to like develop the thing. Yeah, like there’s big areas where they are pushing live streaming.
Moritz Schröder (18:50.534)
Okay.
Moritz Schröder (18:57.329)
Right, okay. And I mean, now that you’re back in Europe and in the Western world, I’m sure you’re comparing from time to time between what the life shopping industry looks like in China and how it’s been developing in the last 10 years since you saw it blossom first. Here we’re still in the very early stages. What are the key differences that you’re seeing between
China in particular in Asia and then here in the Western world.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (19:28.881)
So this is something that I have really fresh in my head actually because I was talking about this last week and the thing is that in China they’ve been doing this for so long and now the audience is super used to live streaming and live shopping and the way that they’re doing it is completely different right now. So they’re pushing a lot on entertainment as well and I don’t know if you’ve seen their live streamings at the moment like they are
doing skits, for example, very short skits where they just type the product and consumers can purchase directly from that. We are very far away from that kind of content. So in terms of China, they’re super developed. The way that they’re thinking of the content is completely different and it’s just short and punchy and they really, really push the sale.
Like live shopping is for selling, they know they want to make money, so they just go for it. That’s one thing with the Chinese market. Then we have the US. The US is a little bit more advanced than Europe and they’ve been implementing it, let’s say maybe three, four years now. They also have lots of live shopping marketplaces. TikTok Shop has been there for
a little bit longer than here in Spain, for example. So they’re getting used to it and they’re implementing and there are brands that are getting huge success at this stage. And then we have Europe, which is a little bit behind. There are so many things that companies still need to learn about live shopping. There are massive concerns when it comes to like, for example, branding.
Sometimes brands think like, but live shopping maybe is gonna make me or my brand look bad. So how am I going to do this? And they’re thinking too much instead of implementing. So we’re still a little bit behind, but it’s true that we are seeing companies, for example, like IKEA that does lots of live streamings, or for example, another brand that we work with here in Spain, Cosori selling
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (21:50.051)
air fryers, they’re doing things with live shopping and it’s working and it’s just, know, brands need to like actually take the leap of faith and try it and implement the right strategies and work with the right people so that they can actually see success with live shopping. But yeah, there’s so many concerns still like, okay, so what is the budget or why is the ROI or what do I need or who’s the team that’s involved?
Is it marketing? Is it e-commerce? Is it social media? There’s so many things still that they don’t know and they’re just thinking, thinking, thinking instead of doing, doing, doing which is what we need.
Moritz Schröder (22:32.914)
It’s also good to then have people who are as experienced as you in both worlds, both in Asia and the Western world, to hold their hand a little bit, walk them through it and give them confidence that this is actually something worth investing in. How much of an investment is it typically for brands to
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (22:49.64)
Absolutely.
Moritz Schröder (22:55.27)
get started at least. They don’t have to go full on at the very beginning, but to dip the toe into it a little bit and maybe see some early traction, how much would you typically estimate that costs?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (23:06.398)
It actually depends on the brand because it could be as simple as going live and you know, so if you have like a good internet connection, good microphone and good lighting and a good presenter, you could go live with that. You don’t need more. But then if you want, of course, to have like this whole setup, you want it to look cinematic whatsoever, then the prices are going to go a lot higher. If you want to count on an influencer, then the price is going to be higher.
as well. So it really depends, you can start very basic, just make sure that you have like the right strategy before the live streaming, during the live streaming and after the live streaming and then just go. But if you want something like more prepared then depending on your budget basically you’re gonna get one thing or another but it can be super simple and super cheap. You don’t need to go crazy with things.
Moritz Schröder (24:02.522)
think also the beauty of it that you’re actually able to
go very low cost at the very beginning. And then as you expand and as you see some traction, can invest more more money into it. I see more more brands that are actually building out their own studios because they see such great successes mainly on TikTok shop, but also in other ways of live shopping and streaming. I’m very excited to see personally how that will develop further on. And if we will see as many studios and live streamers as we
have in Asia already. How, since you mentioned the different key markets with the US on the one hand, China on the other hand, and then Europe kind of in between, how do the different markets compare from your experience? And do you think that Europe will catch up to the boom that we currently see in the US and then where China already has been for a couple of years?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (25:03.074)
So as I mentioned, think Europe’s still a little bit behind. I do see that brands are starting to have some more interest, but inside of the brands, they’re still, as I mentioned, very confused with what is the team that actually needs to take care of this because there is no specific social commerce team and live shopping would be into the social commerce team. So first I need to figure out
who is going to be in charge. then brands, can just start implementing. As I said, we’ve seen brands that are doing it and they’re getting good results, both on e-commerce website and on TikTok shop. And then there are some marketplaces as well that are starting to implement live shopping. We’ve seen that in the US, for example, there’s Amazon live. And then as of yesterday, I think is what it was, there’s also
eBay live or that’s in the UK and Twitch is also going to start doing live shopping. you see all these massive channels with massive audiences are starting to do live streaming as well. So what I see is that at the end of the day brands will have to like start doing live shopping as well because
Consumers are just getting more more used to this and I think this is something that’s interesting for them because what’s happening here in Europe for example at the moment is that brands are not really pushing the sale so much but they’re trying to connect more with the consumer and like explain to them like
whatever questions that they may have about the products and they try to educate them on the product and to build that connection between brand and consumer. So this is also like one of the differences that we see in the markets. Like China is full on aggressive sales, let’s go discounts and all that. Then we have the US that is something in between, like sometimes it’s very salesy and pushy and some other times it’s more like connection and then
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (27:18.324)
We’re here in Europe that of course we want to sell, but we feel like, maybe it’s too much. So I’m not pushing the sale as hard, but I’m going to bring some value to the audience and I’m going to give them something so that, okay, I’m helping them make a purchasing decision and they’re connecting with me. So they have a reason to be here and I’m just sharing with them something like a good time with my consumers. And then they’re getting like maybe
this discount if they purchase here or maybe they’re getting this specific product as well only going to be sold during the live stream or something like that. So those are kind of the differences that I see and how the market is moving right now.
Moritz Schröder (28:04.94)
it’s also going to be really fascinating to see how fragmented the market will become because you do have the different buyer mentality in different countries both within Europe in the different countries but then also compared to the US but then you also have different platforms as you mentioned more and more platforms are actually getting into live social shopping so they are going to be putting their unique touch to the experience as well and then of course you have the
different characters and characteristics of the sellers. Do you, from your experience as an agency owner, have any preference in the types of platforms and types of technologies that you use to go live for brands and with brands? Do you see some working better than others or are you completely agnostic?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (28:56.354)
So this is a hard question to answer actually. I work as an agency, right? So for what I look for when selecting a tech partner for a brand, first I need to know where the brand is at, what they can afford, what they want to do, what they’re looking for. And then depending on that,
I help them choose the right technology for them. So at Paragon we’re partners with different tech solutions. Like for example, Spree that helps with Instagram and Facebook and you can launch your live shopping on those platforms. We’re also partners with Bamboozr for example that allows you to do live shopping on your e-commerce store.
and also helps you create shoppable videos. We’re also partners with Live Me Up that focuses more on Shopify stores. So depending on what the brand is doing, what they want to achieve, is the budget that they have, their size, if they’re selling on Shopify or if they’re selling on TikTok or if they’re selling on whatever, then…
we look at what they’re doing, where they’re at, and then we help them select. Like, okay, we have all these options and this option may be the best one for you. So at the moment, I basically don’t marry to any of the tech solutions because I understand that each brand has different needs. And my role as an advisor in this case, or as a consultant is to help the brand select the right solution for them.
Moritz Schröder (30:40.375)
So it really depends on the individual needs of the brand and the company that you’re working with, what tech platform is best for them. I guess it also depends on where their audience is, right? If they’re already huge on TikTok, obviously it makes sense to go to TikTok. Whereas if they get a lot of traffic on their website and they’re able to drive traffic there, there are other software solutions that probably make more sense for them.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (31:05.169)
Yeah, like basically it depends because if they already have like a huge amount of traffic going to their website, so it probably makes sense to do something on their own website with their consumers that they already have. But maybe if they want to open a new channel, then maybe TikTok shop is the right way to go. So it really depends on what they’re doing. And then also they can have this hybrid strategy where they go live.
on their own ecommerce store and they restream to their socials or at the same time they’re doing tiktok shop so there are many things that you can actually do to like get results and to mix the different options that you have and then in terms of live shopping platforms there are also different marketplaces many of them are like for example whatnot
There are brands that are on what not, there are also many, it’s mostly users that are selling their products there. And then there are platforms that allow you to like upload a product, do a live streaming and then consumers can bid on the product. So it’s also a different way of doing live shopping.
Moritz Schröder (32:20.152)
talked to different people already on this podcast that are very involved in live shopping, including, for example, an agency that works very closely with Spree in Denmark specifically. And people have different takes on what makes
a good live shopping host. So I would love to get your opinion on this matter because some people say it’s more important that you really know the company and you really believe in the product. You know the ins and outs of the product itself. So it should be actually someone coming out of the company. And it’s not so important that you look super confident on camera necessarily, as long as you’re authentic and really believe in what you’re saying. Whereas other people say it’s all about being
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (32:46.333)
.
Moritz Schröder (33:03.222)
professionally trained ideally to be on camera, to look good on camera and also to be really good at driving sales. Where do you stand there?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (33:13.146)
I would say it actually depends on the objective that you have as a brand. I would say like I usually don’t go for influencers for example. I prefer to have somebody from the company because they know everything about the product. If a consumer has a specific question about the product they’re gonna know how to answer and that’s basically what the consumer…
once they want answers to their questions. So maybe an influencer may not know how to like answer to those things. But then of course they need to have the right energy because you know when you are on camera, if you don’t have the right energy, it just can feel boring and then the audience is going to go and you don’t want that. You want to keep the audience there. So it definitely needs to be somebody that’s engaging. And I would say that a salesperson is always a good choice because they can sell
and they’re really good at talking. So, right? They’re gonna help you with the sale. They’re gonna explain everything to you and they’re gonna have the energy to stay like over the top all the time so that the audience can actually engage. And I would say that’s what’s important that the person that’s doing the live streaming, they understand about what they’re selling and what they’re talking about, but they also have the right energy and they know how to like make the sale happen.
Moritz Schröder (34:37.91)
think there’s definitely a learning curve still, especially here in the Western world where we’re still figuring out this new medium. And even though social media has been around for a long time, and in my opinion, live shopping is surprisingly similar to social media in the sense that you need to hook the audience, you need to be engaging, you need to make sure there’s retention on the content that you’re producing.
Surprisingly, many people still seem to think that live shopping somehow works differently than that. Do you have to do a lot of education and really lecturing your customers in what is the best way to get people to stay to watch?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (35:15.323)
Absolutely, I have to do a lot of lecturing on pretty much everything because I still have these clients that think like, okay, I’m just gonna go live and things are gonna happen and that’s really far away from the reality. Like you need to prepare before like…
the audience needs to know that the live streaming is going to happen. The audience needs to know that there’s going to be something special for them there. So there are things that you obviously need to prepare in advance. You do not have to have everything fully scripted or be very stiff with what’s happening on camera. But you need to prepare, obviously.
Moritz Schröder (35:59.307)
with the market developing as it is, particularly here in Europe, if you focus on that for a second, how do you see the agency built up of TikTok specifically? TikTok Shop is live in the UK. It’s recently gone live in Germany and also Spain. And I know that you’re a partner in those markets for TikTok Shop.
Do you see an ecosystem developing around TikTok shop in terms of affiliates, obviously, but then also in terms of agencies or is it still pretty much an open canvas and it’s pretty much up for grabs for the early ones like your agency.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (36:43.099)
So it’s still very early, like for example in Spain, TikTok Shop launched in December 2024, so it’s not even one year yet. And yes, we see an ecosystem building and there’s a huge learning curve as well. So I am obviously working with TikTok Shop and brands that are entering the marketplace as well.
And there is a lot of confusion. Many brands still don’t know how it works. They don’t understand that TikTok Shop and TikTok is not the same thing. Like even though it’s the same platform, they operate differently. So brands still need to learn a lot of things. And also, TikTok Shop does not work as any other marketplace, like for example, Amazon. It’s completely different. And also the way that you get results is…
different as well from how you get results in other platforms. yeah, brands need to learn a lot about that. There’s an ecosystem of agencies. Yes, some of them are TikTok Shop partners, the ones like us who are TikTok Shop partners, we get access to the TikTok Shop team. So it’s faster for us to solve any kind of issue or to move forward with things and to basically ease.
the implementation of TikTok Shop. In terms of affiliates, affiliates are basically creators that get paid a commission for every sale that they make and they usually get free sample. And what is happening also is that, at least here in Spain, what we see is that there are creators that actually understand how it works and they are familiar with affiliate marketing per se.
And then there are so many other creators that don’t understand what affiliate marketing is and how this works. So they don’t, they don’t really get it yet. So all of us agencies, we need to kind of train creators and like help them understand how the system works. And the same thing with on the brand side, for example, when we agencies tell them like, no, but you need.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (39:01.909)
You need to give, for example, 100 samples on month one so that you reach a broad audience and then your product can blow up in the platform. Sometimes they go like, my God, but 100 samples, that’s a lot. How do I know this is gonna work and this and that? But there are all these creators and these creators, they don’t know anything about my brand or they’re creating content that’s not related to my brand. They just go like, my God, what is this?
And then the same thing with creators, they’re like, no, but I want to get paid for every piece of content that I’m putting out. And we’re like, it doesn’t really work like that. So it’s a little bit complicated, but it is true that we’ve been in the market in Spanish market, for example, for a year almost now.
Moritz Schröder (39:41.213)
Right.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (39:53.006)
and brands are starting to get used to it. I just saw yesterday that they are here in Spain, 12,000 brands that are already on boarded on TikTok shops. So that’s a fair number for like what it’s been nine months that the platform has been in the market. And yeah, that’s basically it. We need to like keep basically training.
brands and creators and then of course there are agencies like mine that we already have some knowledge from the other markets that we’ve been working on before. There are also lots of Chinese agencies that are helping with Chinese sellers and they’re in the market so they also have the knowledge as well and then there are many other agencies that don’t really have any idea as of yet because they’ve never done it before.
Moritz Schröder (40:20.381)
Right.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (40:47.875)
but they’re just learning as we go.
Moritz Schröder (40:52.168)
With your insights into the Spanish market, even though it’s not even been a full year yet, do you see any early success stories of brands that really exceeded expectations and explored this new medium so early that they could really fully take advantage of having the first mover advantage really?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (41:14.615)
Yeah, so for example, we’ve seen a few examples on the supplement category. Supplements are selling very well and then there are a few brands that have made use of affiliates and ads and through affiliates, know, like affiliates can both create content and as videos and they can do live streaming as well. So they’ve
taken advantage of that, so to say, and then they pushed everything that works with paid media ads. And so those brands have gotten really, really good results. And then one of my case studies as well is that we worked with this brand that I mentioned, we were selling on a live streaming air fryers. And so air fryers are well above the price that products usually sell on TikTok shop.
People think that you can only sell like 30 euro products on TikTok shop, but we got this case the average or their value was 176 euro, so it’s a lot higher than the average. And then we’ve also gotten a few companies to get ROAS above five within the first 90 days.
which is also really good for TikTok shop knowing that the market is still new, small, affiliates are still learning, that the audience still growing. yeah, we’re definitely seeing success. in, so I was in New Mexico a couple of weeks back as well, and I had the chance to meet this brand called Miralina, they sell halal sweets.
And they’re also doing a really good job on TikTok Shop in Germany. working both with affiliates and ads. So basically, you go, like the thing with TikTok Shop is that you need to go all in. And then if you go all in, you have chances to actually get good results. But it’s not like, oh yeah, I’m gonna get five samples here, 50 euros on ads, maybe one day live streaming. That’s not gonna work. So.
Moritz Schröder (43:38.417)
So you gotta be fully committed and honestly have the conviction and the belief that this is gonna work even though it might take a little bit of time, especially in markets where TikTok shop as a way of selling is so new, for example, in Germany and in Spain.
When you meet your clients, is that mostly that you meet them at trade shows, like you mentioned, and you get to have a personal connection with them first, or what’s your recommendation for anyone out there who has a TikTok shop agency to get their first clients?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (44:10.564)
So, well, I do a lot of on-site events, but that’s also because I like connecting with people. think, you know, before I work with a client, I really like feeling the energy, like, we a good fit? Like, do we get along well? Are we going to work well together? So I really like connecting in person when possible. If not, that is also fine, but yeah, most of my clients come from…
basically all the events that I go to and also because I share a lot of things on LinkedIn. So many clients come to me from the content that they have seen from me online, either on LinkedIn or on Instagram or when I go to any trade shows and I give a talk, I am very present and it’s very easy to find me into this space specifically.
And then if I want to reach out to more potential clients, I look for obviously the to see listings of companies that I may want to like connect with and see what they’re doing and see what their needs are in terms of social companies.
Moritz Schröder (45:24.998)
So you definitely have to put yourself out there as an agency owner. And I would imagine that for you that’s second nature, but it’s definitely good to be aware before you get into the agency business. What does a typical day for you look like in terms of work? What is a work day of someone who runs a social commerce agency look like?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (45:46.166)
So it’s actually a lot of work and so I start my day with my daily call with my team So we organize the day we we take what what’s happening with clients and then we have some time that’s set up for basically business development and like looking for new clients and we have some time just to create content and then we have some time to take like what’s happening within the company and what’s happening with clients
Moritz Schröder (46:16.197)
Okay. And since you are already present in UK, in Germany and in Spain with your agency, what do you think, where will TikTok Shop launch next? I’m really hoping that Scandinavia might be on the list. Me being based in Sweden, that would be fantastic to have TikTok Shop here. What is your gut feeling where TikTok Shop might be launching next?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (46:40.554)
That is so hard to tell because they like, TikTok never shares any information before anything is official. So I don’t, I really don’t know.
Moritz Schröder (46:51.119)
I was hoping I would get some inside scoop from you from the agency side, but they don’t tell you either, I’m sure.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (46:56.151)
No, no, no, they don’t share anything. It’s everything is like super super secret. We knew that that Spain was gonna finally launch Literally one month before the launch. So So, yeah, but I’m hoping the Netherlands for example or yeah, I would say the northern countries would be good as well because Denmark’s doing well with live shopping as well as we’ve seen with spree
So that would be very interesting. And then, yeah, I’ve seen as well a few brands in the Netherlands that are doing live shopping, well, live streaming. We cannot call it really shopping yet on TikTok. And yeah, I see those are markets with potential, but I’ve seen like the way that TikTok is doing is that they launch like a country or a set of countries in Europe and then they launch another country or set of countries in…
America because what they did is that they launched Spain and then they launched Mexico and then they came back to Europe and launched Germany Italy and France and then they launched Brazil and then they launched Japan so yeah they’re just like opening markets like that
Moritz Schröder (48:16.266)
I guess they’re gonna leave us in the dark until we find out. But it’s cool to see that smaller countries are also increasingly on the radar and it’s not just the most populated countries anymore. So that gives me hope for Sweden at least.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (48:31.286)
Yeah, hopefully they do. think basically what they will do, I assume, is that they’ll check how many brands are already active on TikTok, how many brands are doing live streaming, how many brands… What is the possibility for TikTok Shop to actually succeed in the market? And then depending on that, they’ll select one or another. And for sure, they’ll check what’s the amount of online sales.
that are happening and what is the amount of audience that they have within TikTok as well that is older than 18 years old because that’s another thing. Users that are under 18, they won’t have access to the shop videos or shop live streams and stuff like that. So they need to really think what is the actual audience that they have access to in each country.
Moritz Schröder (49:27.553)
So you need to look at penetration of the market, but not only with like 13 year old high school kids, but actually people who would be able to purchase. Okay. Yeah, that’s a valuable insight because I think a lot of people are still aware of TikTok as mainly this app that young kids use, which is not correct entirely anymore, but it is still a very large part of the audience. So it’s good to be aware that this is actually an audience that would not even be relevant for TikTok shop then.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (49:35.871)
who can actually support it. Exactly.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (49:49.662)
Right.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (49:57.969)
Exactly.
Moritz Schröder (50:00.055)
I think it makes also parents feel a little bit safer around their kids using TikTok that they would not be eligible to buy stuff that they see there.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (50:08.786)
Exactly, yeah, no, it’s just not possible. And actually, we had a call the other day because agencies, we also have internal trainings about content and what is allowed and what is not allowed. They were telling us also that it’s not appropriate to share content in which you can see kids. So they’re not even encouraging having kids on videos.
like especially for the show.
Moritz Schröder (50:37.891)
Okay, I think that makes sense. From your perspective as someone who’s so deeply involved in social commerce and live shopping, what are some of the pain points that you still hope that somebody would solve in the ecosystem of live shopping and social commerce? Is there anything that you run into almost on a daily basis and you wish there was a company that fixes that?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (51:03.093)
Not really an niche, it’s more like a mindset thing I would say. First, brands need to understand that they need a strategy that is not just turning on the camera and then sales are gonna happen. So this is something that I would love for everybody to understand because it would make everybody’s lives easier when it comes to work.
And yeah, like we need to be realistic as well with the objectives and with what we want to achieve. And we need to be very clear as well if we’re doing live streaming because we want to sell or if we’re doing live streaming because we want consumers to know about us and to connect with us. So those things are important as well.
Moritz Schröder (51:47.797)
And with an industry that is evolving as quickly as social commerce, what do you use as resources to stay up to date? I know that TikTok provides some official resources, but beyond that, do you have any thought leaders, any channels that you follow that the audience might also benefit from?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (52:09.021)
So I’m always in the lookout for news. There is not that much going on about social commerce that people aren’t sharing. So I do share a lot of insights and a lot of things. And there are some other people in the industry as well. Like for example, we mentioned about them, Spree or Light Me Up or Lisa. Those are bamboozers as well. All those tech companies that are involved into
the live streaming space, share the case studies that they’ve been like, well, the companies that they’ve been working with the case studies. And it’s, you can always learn from all those companies and they also host frequently webinars and they share information there also from the inside, from the brands, what they did, how it worked for them and all the things that they actually had to take into account to make it work.
And then Gary Vee is talking a lot about live shopping lately, so that is something that I enjoy seeing a lot. I met him in London in 2023 and we had like this short conversation like, hey, what do you think about live shopping? And at this stage there was still not like almost nothing going on. And so I really like seeing how he’s talking about it as well. And
Moritz Schröder (53:39.702)
Yeah, I think somebody with his audience and reach that’s certainly pushing the entire industry forward to have him talk about it repeatedly as he does. Also, he’s very deeply invested in it, right? I think he has a stake in what not at this point. So he’s really doubling down on the industry and wanted to succeed, which is great for everyone involved. I think exactly. Yeah.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (53:46.652)
I’ve finished.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (54:02.791)
He’s got to live every day as well and.
Moritz Schröder (54:07.499)
To me, it also seems like it’s an industry that is still in the early stages and therefore a lot of people in the industry really just want everyone to succeed. To me as an outsider, it seems like there’s not the same kind of fierce competition that you see in other industries where it’s really doggy dog, whereas in live shopping and social comments, it seems like if someone succeeds, it’s good for the entire industry. Is that fair to say or do I get that wrong there?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (54:33.459)
Yeah, 100%. So the thing is that, well, also the way that I see it, and I would say most people in the industry see it. So at the moment, we’re still like a very tiny industry, so to say. And so the more case studies, the more because the thing is that there are many companies that are doing live shopping, but they just don’t share the results or anything. So they’re just keeping everything to themselves. But yeah, what I mean with this is that the more that we’re able to share, the more that
brands and consumers learn more about this, the bigger the market’s gonna get. So if we support each other at this point in which the market is still small, it’s only beneficial for everybody. Because there’s still so much that needs to be done. There’s still so much space for growth that of course everyone is happy to see like, okay, they did this and it worked, they did that and this worked. It’s the right moment to like,
get into the market, do things and support each other and like work together. This has to say we’re a very tiny industry. We all know each other. So yeah.
Moritz Schröder (55:46.592)
What is your prediction for 2026 for social commerce? What do you expect will happen to the industry?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (55:55.857)
I only see it growing, like there’s some data out there, I don’t remember from which research, we just saw it the other day, that the industry is growing on a 27 % year on year, so that’s fair, that’s pretty good.
Moritz Schröder (56:14.944)
saw that too and that’s wild. mean, that’s like early days of e-commerce growth, like early 2000s kind of e-commerce growth. And now we’re seeing it again happen. And so far, so few people are paying attention to it.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (56:26.833)
Yeah, I think it’s just a matter of time. the thing is that what I see, well, obviously the brands that enter now or have already entered, they already know the game. So they are already seeing the results. And then the brands that take a little bit longer to like implement life shopping or social commerce, they’re going to be a little bit behind or it’s going to get more expensive for them to actually get the same results. So
As I see it, this is something that is only moving forward. It’s been actually slower than I would have expected in the past couple years. But I think we are at this point in which it needs to happen because the audience is there. You need to connect with your audience. Audiences are looking for attention. We can grab attention through content. So it’s only like different types of content that we can create and just make it shoppable.
if we want to like increase sales and get to other audiences and to keep our audiences with us. So yeah, I just see this growing. We have seen in China as well, they’re starting to use these AI avatars, AI hosts, which are actually making a ton like crazy amount of sales. I think in Europe, maybe we’re still a little bit behind on this.
But as soon as AI is a little bit more developed, I think we will start implementing that as well. Because many brands usually say like, we cannot scale this because we need to have one person that’s doing the live streaming all the time, this and that, da da da. But that’s going to end once the AI also is set up for like a live streaming interaction and all that.
Yeah, I just see things moving.
Moritz Schröder (58:23.355)
It’s gonna be…
It’s going to be really interesting to see how AI will affect social commerce because to me social commerce and live streaming is so inherently human and that’s the whole premise of it, right? You get that human interaction, that connection with a real person who truly cares about you, who reacts to your chats.
to replace that with an AI bot is somewhat counterproductive, but at the same time, I do see the appeal of it, especially from a brand perspective where you want to save money, you want someone to potentially do this 24 seven. And if you can get an avatar to do it, then why wouldn’t you embrace that?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (59:04.674)
Yeah, so like that’s the thing. The downside that I see with this AI avatar is that they’re not going to be able to respond to things that happen on the chat, for example. There is no such interaction, at least as of today, or at least that I’m aware of. And in live shopping,
most of the magic happens as well on the chat because consumers are telling you what they want and what they want to see and like what they’re interested in. So it’s really important as well to pay attention to everything that happens. That’s kind of the second ecosystem of live shopping and really beneficial for brands as well because they can gather all this data and they can
see like okay so we did this live streaming and this is what happened and this is what people were commenting on the chat and this is what they wanted to know so now we can prepare the next live streaming with all those things in mind and thinking of what the audience actually want to see and like what their concerns were so
Moritz Schröder (01:00:07.26)
Yeah, it’s gonna be a wild ride going into 2026 for live shopping and social commerce with all the innovation and evolutions that are happening to the format. Was super awesome to talk with you today, Carmen, where do you want people to reach out to you and connect with you if they’re interested in working together with you?
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (01:00:27.866)
Thank you. So if you want to find me, you can find me on LinkedIn. You just search for Carmen Muley. It’s spelled like M-U-L-E-Y. And it will appear with two Chinese characters on the end. That’s my Chinese name because of the time that I lived in China. You can find me, as I said, on LinkedIn. And you can find me on paragonsocialcommerce.com. And you can also just send me an email to carmen at paragonsocialcommerce.com.
Moritz Schröder (01:00:57.573)
Awesome. thanks so much for coming on.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (01:01:00.986)
Thank you very much for having me.
Moritz Schröder (01:01:03.739)
Have a good rest of the day.
Carmen Muley – Paragon Social Commerce (01:01:05.463)
You too. Bye.