Guest Bio:
Olly Hudson is the founder of soarwithus.co, an agency doing social media ads for 8 and 9 figure DTC Brands. He is also co-hosting the podcast D2C Diaries.
Episode Summary:
In this conversation, Olly Hudson shares his journey in the DTC advertising space, discussing the evolution of the industry, the importance of creative operations, and the role of social media platforms like TikTok in shaping modern marketing strategies. He emphasizes the need for brands to adapt to new trends, invest in content creation, and build strong relationships with creators to drive sustainable growth. The discussion also touches on the challenges faced by new DTC brands and the future of affiliate marketing in a rapidly changing landscape.
Main Takeaways:
- Olly Hudson started his agency straight out of university, focusing on DTC brands.
- The DTC landscape has evolved significantly since 2019, especially during COVID.
- Creative operations are crucial for brands to excel in today’s market.
- TikTok shop has become a powerful acquisition channel for brands.
- Brands need to produce a high volume of diverse content to succeed.
- The rise of affiliate marketing is changing how brands engage with creators.
- Social media remains a top channel for brand marketing in 2025.
- Brands should focus on building long-term relationships with creators.
- Sustainable DTC brands prioritize customer experience and repeat purchases.
- The marketing mix is becoming more complex with new channels emerging.
Full Transcript:
Moritz Schröder (00:01.711)
Oli, super excited to have you on. You are running a very successful D2C ad company. You’re having clients that are doing eight or nine figures a year and you’ve consistently worked with them to improve their revenue on social media specifically. I want to get into all of that, but maybe let’s start with the origin story. What got you into working with D2C brands in the first place?
Olly Hudson (00:32.002)
Well, yeah, firstly, thanks for having me on. Pleasure to be here. Excited to chat. All things DTC. Yeah, I started the agency straight out of university. at university, I met a guy called Matt, who now runs a business called Space Goods. We did some drop shipping together. There’s quite a lot of people in e-com start through drop shipping, I guess. Long story short, we ran…
Ran with that business primarily through Facebook ads, scaled it up to a couple of hundred thousand a month. It was very early days in Facebook, like white image ads, DPAs, selling jeans and Sherpa jackets on the internet from China. Tried to move it into like UK localized production, was very naive to what that actually involved in terms of logistics. Didn’t know Chinese New Year was a thing, so the order.
did like 4,000 orders and I was managing the emails, like so many backlogs, so many customer service issues just through naivety. And kind of moved on from that business and just took the skillsets of providing Facebook ads and went out and did some free trials for some companies and basically have grown the business from there. So.
It was me running Facebook ads for brands for free on the basis that if we achieved performance, we’d move to a retainer, with my co-founder Joe doing a lot of the business development. And then we’ve just kind of built from there, hired our first team members. And now we’re at probably about 80 people across the business and the agency working with 65 plus brands, some of the UK’s biggest, biggest businesses. So you need to see businesses that is so yeah, been a interesting journey from a bedroom and
University.
Moritz Schröder (02:24.487)
for sure. And I think a lot of people out there are actually jealous of this kind of almost instant success out of university. And then also to be able to keep doing what you’re interested in and what you enjoy doing without the need to eventually succumb to the nine to five job that a lot of people dread but don’t really have a way out from.
How did you see the DTC space and also the ad space change in the time that you have been working with it now? And how long ago was that actually that you started with it?
Olly Hudson (03:04.161)
So we started in 2019. So the landscape has gone through so many changes in that short time. What is that? Like six years. And it feels like we’ve, it’s been like a lifetime in e-commerce. I think back then we were in the days of like media buying was super high leverage, right? You could, you would setting up lookalike audiences where you would
retargeting people at like five or six different steps of the funnel. Like you’d have a, you’d have a campaign with like a hundred ad sets with 1 % lookalike audiences across all of these different audience types and builds. And you could really like force Facebook into delivering great results for brands with very little inputs. So very little creative requirement, quite simple products and offers. It was quite novel. of
consuming online or was in its earlier stages of direct to consumer. Then we moved into like COVID and that whole boom and just like that massive tailwind for consumer spending on the internet. And I think that really like almost multiplied the impact you could drive inflated business value companies had record.
years off the back of the change in environment and ecosystem and all of the massive, there was a massive changing funding to, to econ brands. Many brands raised at crazy valuations. saw a lot of IPOs and that was like, I guess the golden era for, for econ for to some degree. And then we saw the rise of like iOS 14 and the change in privacy. And then this new shift over the last couple of years to like,
more creative led growth. And the lever moving from like tactical media by to fundamental consumer psychology, the ability to create amazing offers, amazing customer journeys, and amazing creative that really resonates and drives action through these channels. I’m of the belief that Facebook is still as powerful as ever, just the barrier to success on the platform.
Olly Hudson (05:24.066)
or the barrier to great results is higher. Like the inputs, the operations that need to flow around that acquisition ecosystem or that paid media ecosystem have changed a lot. And businesses and us as a business and the clients we work with have really had to adapt to that, especially over the last couple of years.
Moritz Schröder (05:44.761)
Yeah, you touched on a lot of very interesting points there. I have an e-comm background myself. I worked at Klarna here in Stockholm, Sweden for many years and I totally agree that 2019 and onwards the COVID peak was also peak for e-commerce and then layoffs happened and inflation hit and things got a lot harder for e-comm brands out there. You also touched on the very interesting trend and something that I’m particularly interested.
where creators nowadays are a very powerful tool to drive brand recognition, but then also to drive conversion ultimately. And I wanna get a lot deeper into that and hear your thoughts on it. But someone like you obviously is very much on top of these trends. I would assume that a lot of brands that reach out to you might not be. So do you have to do a lot of educating there that…
It’s no longer 2021 and you can’t just run Facebook ads and immediately expect great results, but instead you have to think a little bit more broadly and maybe think about UGC, think about TikTok on top of Meta, et cetera, et cetera. Is there a lot of education needed or do brands know the current state of ad campaigns?
Olly Hudson (07:00.014)
yeah, yes, I think there is a lot of education. I think even when we take this year as a time, like a take this year as a timeframe, there’s been a shift even in the last six to eight months around like what really works from a Facebook perspective. Obviously you’ve seen the rise of TikTok shop and how that’s impacting acquisition for brands and how that presents like another opportunity.
but we, we spend a lot of our time, working within the meta ecosystem and it is, we do take it as like our responsibility to educate our clients on what, how to get the most out of that ecosystem. Over the last six months we’ve seen, yeah, certainly the rise of, of the continued rise, I guess, of creator led performance and content, through dip, through a load of different mediums, but we’ve also seen the rise in like.
the requirement for just a huge increase in volume of output and diversity, like, and diversity being like the more recent change, like the idea that we need to be creating a really wide range of assets that appeal to many different audiences at different stages of the funnel, across different personas, across different angles. And it’s important to really approach that with the…
the right way for brands to look at that strategically, how we do in research, we understanding our customers. So we’re speaking like a customer, not like a brand. How are we creating output that allows us to unlock that new reach, that growth in the right way. yeah, creators are a big part of that. UGC has obviously been around for a few years now, I think.
At the start, it was very like formulaic. was very like product, hook product, body call to action. Now what we’re seeing is it, you need to be looking at like more narrative driven concepts, more like education first cell second. The concepts are getting longer, 30, 40, 50 seconds plus. If you even went back 12 months, like assets over 30 seconds, we just wouldn’t really be creating those. So.
Olly Hudson (09:18.223)
The landscape shifts very quickly and it’s on us to stay on top of that and it’s on us to educate our clients and the broader market on how to generate the best results from these platforms for sure.
Moritz Schröder (09:31.82)
Do those DTC clients that you work with typically already have content as a big part of their good market strategy? Do they see the value in creating content besides just creating revenue straight from it, or is it really a means to an end for them?
Olly Hudson (09:51.12)
That’s a good question. I think the top, when I, always like to like look at our context and our client base and separate out like the top 10 % and really try and understand what separates, what makes them the fastest growing brands, what separates them from the rest in the ecosystem we’re operating in today. And beyond the fundamentals of like product and economics, which we have little control over. I think the brands that are
Excelling are the ones that really understand that creative operations is probably one of the most important workflows in a business online today. and that’s for, that can be for performance, but that can also be for top of funnel content. Maybe it’s a YouTube channel and series. Maybe it’s offline. Maybe it’s. many different distribution channels for that creative, but
it’s the ability to build an operation that allows you to produce a high volume of assets, improve your learnings and allow you to avoid hitting growth plateaus by pulling more people into market and driving conversion. So. Yeah, I think the brands that are, that are generating the fastest growth and the best results are the ones that are putting a lot of time and focus.
into that area of their business. A lot of people, a lot of resource investment, a lot of talent, lot of direct expenditure on creative. But not every business is sort of adapted to that yet. There are brands we look at and we’ll look at their ad account or we’ll look at their general operation and they’ll be creating just a very low volume of assets.
and they’ll usually be the ones that are struggling to reach new audiences that are struggling to grow spend without seeing caq increase over time. it just, stuck it stuck at those like plateaus of growth, can be quite common for brands in today’s ecosystem.
Moritz Schröder (11:52.982)
Okay. That’s, that’s really interesting that you see a clear correlation between how quickly a parent is growing and how successful they get off the ground to how much time and resources they invest into creating content and working with content creation on also various platforms. You mentioned YouTube, but then obviously TikTok, Instagram, and others are relevant later on as well.
Also interesting is to me that you’re based in the UK, you’re based in Leeds and UK has been one of the very first markets to get access to TikTok shop. In fact, it’s been the first Western market that it was rolled out to. How have you experienced the rise of TikTok shop?
for someone like you who was already working in that space before they came onto the scene and how has it changed the scene? How has it changed how people use content creation but also how they use platforms to advertise their brands and sell online?
Olly Hudson (13:02.103)
Yeah, it’s been a big change in the ecosystem. I think it’s been great for many brands because it provides another really meaningful acquisition channel that you can get to be very meaningful in terms of new customer growth. I think it’s obviously been active in the UK for a fairly lengthy period of time now. And I even think in…
Just looking at TikTok shop, we’ve seen it go through a bit of a, it’s progressed a lot since it’s, it’s launched. think we’ve generally seen the TikTokification I’d say of, general marketing content, right? Like UGC was largely born out of TikTok. I think we’ve seen that, that process continue. So we’ve seen, like a lot of TikTok shop style content creep into Facebook, longer form or narrative driven concepts.
come across to the meta ecosystem. But looking at TikTok Shop as a channel, I think it’s provided a massive opportunity. We’ve seen brands like P. Louise generating multi-millions of pounds off a live stream of live shopping. That’s one part of that ecosystem. We’ve then seen brands like a brand we work with called Nutrition Geeks. If you look at their store, like…
They’re doing multi seven figures a month in revenue through affiliates and that whole affiliate ecosystem, that ability to incentivize and align creators around generating a tangible revenue, a very direct and tangible revenue outcome for your business through creative production and sort of really nurture a community of, of affiliates. And I like to kind of use the mental model of like,
It’s almost like the next, it’s almost like a sales team. Like you’re able to generate this content driven sales team for your brand if you can set it up in the right way. And the impact of that can be crazy. You can see brands generate this flywheel that produces huge growth, huge changes in trajectory of growth and huge step changes in revenue and new customer acquisition just through people creating.
Olly Hudson (15:21.85)
content and distributing that through TikTok. So I think it’s become a really powerful ecosystem. And I still think it’s quite early in that journey of social commerce as a channel for brands.
Moritz Schröder (15:35.722)
You mentioned a couple of really powerful brands specifically in the UK that take advantage of all the possibilities that nowadays TikTok shop presents. But I would imagine that there are also DTC brands that would love to advertise on TikTok, but don’t necessarily have a presence through a TikTok shop itself. Is that…
Do you see that a lot or do nowadays more more brands if they choose to advertise on TikTok also create a TikTok shop for themselves?
Olly Hudson (16:09.508)
I think we’ve seen like a narrative shift. We got onto TikTok quite early in terms of the ad platform itself through a director website. So we were working with brands sending, making creative and sending people direct to site like you would on a Facebook. Over the last 12 to 18 months, every sales conversation, every new business conversation we have for TikTok pretty much starts with TikTok shop. I think we’ve seen a shift on platform.
TikTok’s focus very much feels like they’re focused on, on shop as a channel. their, their resource, their support, their narrative, is super focused on, on that. And I think that has followed from a brand perspective as well. I think it’s, it, the barrier to entry is, is, is relatively low for, for that as a channel, the investment, from a, from a, like a
Initial investment perspective, you’re not having to go out and pay a couple of thousand plus pounds to create UGC to then spend speculatively hoping that that creative works. You can set up that affiliate system and very much just reach out to affiliates and it’s quite low cost to get started. So yeah, I definitely think we’ve seen a shift towards that being the focus on the channel within brand conversations over the last 12 months.
Moritz Schröder (17:38.19)
And I would assume that a lot of that also has to do with the shift within TikTok to promote
GMV Max as the only way to run ads essentially from what I understand and happy to be educated further there by an expert like you but it’s basically taking all the different content that is being created around your brand whether through through live through your own content as a brand and of course the affiliate content created and then pushes whatever works best.
I would imagine that that’s very difficult to even run if you don’t have TikTok shop as a brand. How do you as the expert on that matter feel about GMB Max being pushed so aggressively by TikTok?
Olly Hudson (18:26.959)
Yeah, it’s interesting. When we’re sending traffic to site, we can still run with normal campaigns, but in the shop ecosystem, we’ve definitely seen pretty much everything shift to GMV Max. And I also think the way to generate success through shop has become more reliant on paid over time as competitions increased, as GMV Max is rolled out. And yeah, we’re using it.
as the main growth engine for brands. And it’s about how can we generate the inputs to generate success with GMV Max? Cause it has a pretty substantial creative requirements and maintain consistent results. Like, can we generate enough affiliate organic content? Can we feed it with the inputs we need to generate the right ROAS outcome and allow us to spend more without seeing that ROAS or that CAC target degrade over time.
so yeah, it’s been, it’s been a big shift. think they rolled it out, probably a bit too aggressively to, like, like most ad channels, like they seem to just throw things out and like, you just have to deal with it as a bit of a problem. as, it’s matured, it certainly seems like it’s, it’s becoming more and more powerful for the brands that can build the, the right operations around the ad account or that GMV max campaign to drive, to drive performance. Yeah.
Moritz Schröder (19:53.917)
Did it change the raw as the return on ad spend that you see from your DTC client in any way?
Olly Hudson (20:02.609)
That’s a good question. I think early on it was challenging to just get to grips with like how to get the most out of it. As with like when Facebook rolled out CBO and like when Facebook rolled out ASC, often it doesn’t quite play out as they may be planned in the early stages, but then as it matures as a product and as a delivery mechanism and…
You adapt to that. it’s certainly providing really strong results for, for, for, for our brands that have again, providing it with the right inputs. I where brands often come unstuck is they’re not producing enough asset volume. They’re not. It’s they’re not adding new creative on a weekly basis to that campaign. They’re not feeding it with enough, enough new inputs to maintain performance. You don’t want to be in a position where you like your
Looking in your GMV max campaign on a product level and all of your spend is centralized to one or two ads. may not be an issue today, but there’s probably going to reach a point where they’re going to fatigue and you need newness that’s delivering similar performance to be able to pick up the burden of spend and continue to drive, drive, conversions at the target you’ve got as a business. So yeah, I think if you can, if you can do that, it’s a really powerful.
It’s a really powerful delivery mechanism. If you aren’t set up to do that and you’re not producing that volume of assets, it can lead to quite volatile performance. So that’s a really important thing to consider when looking at getting the most out of that setup.
Moritz Schröder (21:43.013)
It seems like TikTok also found yet another way there to incentivize creators and brands to keep producing new and fresh content and constantly re-uploading organic content rather than relying on the ads that have been working and just blasting them.
Olly Hudson (22:03.977)
Yeah. think that’s the thing where I’m trying to think about 2026 is a, a strategically from a brand perspective. It’s like, where does the content requirement end? Like I’ve never met a brand owner that said I’ve got enough content or I’ve got enough creative. It’s all it’s always like, how do we make more? How do we make more? How do we make better? How do we make with the right intention behind that? We need to be making high quality whilst doing more volume, but
Moritz Schröder (22:18.086)
you
Olly Hudson (22:31.793)
So it’s a difficult challenge, right? If you compare that to 2019, when you could get success through a few static ads for like months at a time, like the complexity is just so, is vastly greater than that previous ecosystem we’re operating in. So it’d be interesting to see how that plays out into next year and whether the algorithms can get better at delivery. that…
requirement maybe decreases over time, it’s difficult to kind of hypothesize, but it’ll certainly be interesting to see how that plays out.
Moritz Schröder (23:02.927)
Yeah, it could also be a good argument for a further growth in live shopping events because it’s long form obviously. And if you clip that, you can create almost unlimited amount of content clips out of it. Do you see a lot of Detail Suite brands already utilizing that in the UK?
Olly Hudson (23:14.993)
Yeah.
Olly Hudson (23:22.053)
Definitely. It’s not something we are executing on within our business at a high level right now, but it’s great to see some of these brands from afar, getting amazing success through live shopping. Like you’ve got brands doing seven figures in a day through lives. You’ve got brands doing six figures of revenue in a couple of hours. It’s like, it’s a crazy new medium. It’s very novel for the consumer.
And I think novelty probably makes it harder. Like it’s not the habit of purchasing through live shopping is, is, is probably, it’s not ingrained in, in Western culture yet, but yet these brands are still generating these insane results. So again, I think there’s, there’s tailwinds there that will probably, we’ll probably see those that only continue into next year. And it’s going to be amazing to see what Q4 looks like, but
Yeah, those live shopping moments for these brands that are able to execute the right way or amazing revenue drivers. They’re also just crazy top of funnel awareness drivers as well. They have a really positive trickle down effect on all channels and the business as a whole. yeah, it’s quite a new format and new medium, but the results are already insane. So excited to see how that plays out over the next months.
Moritz Schröder (24:47.237)
Yeah, likewise. With TikTok pretty much dominating what they branded as discovery commerce and then also commerce changing in the sense that more more probably will be done through AI in whatever way. That’s probably too soon to decide exactly how that will pan out, but Chet-Chet-Bit-T is definitely moving into that direction. Do you think that, for example, TikTok shop in the future will become the sole
a storefront for some of these brands or will it always be a combination of having your own website, most likely on Shopify, then probably having an Amazon presence and then also doing TikTok shop as just one of the pillars.
Olly Hudson (25:32.722)
That’s a really good question.
Olly Hudson (25:38.707)
I like to look at distribution through like, like channels of distribution. like Amazon direct consumer, TikTok shop, I feel like they’re all additive and it’s like trying to meet the consumer at the point of discovery and wherever they are spending their time and attention, Amazon obviously operates a lot, usually operates a little bit more lower funnel. It’s a little bit more intent driven. It’s less discovery led.
Whereas TikTok shop and Meta even a little bit more like impulse purchase discovery, paying for that attention. So I think the brands that we’re seeing again grow the fastest are the ones that are executing on multiple of these, these channels in a, in really effective way that that’s additive to the overall revenue and growth in, in, in new customer revenue and repeat customer revenue.
So I think we’ll continue to see those channels grow. also see, when a brand is getting a lot of success on TikTok shop, often halos into Amazon and into DTC very effectively. so that might be the point of discovery, but a customer might opt to transact somewhere else, which I think is a testimony to the fact that brands should try and show up in multiple places and, and treat these channels as.
unique strategies and try and maximize them all in isolation because, but measure the impacts of each on the others. Obviously the AI is another point of discovery, another channel to think about. Like you said, it’s maybe a bit early to make too many informed guesses on how that’s going to play out, but it’s definitely going to change how people search for and discover products. Especially
those that are maybe a bit more high intent. So you’re searching for a specific problem or a specific supplement and AI is able to make that recommendation. It brings that point of discovery even closer to the point of purchase with the integration that they’ve recently done with ChatGPT. So yeah, I don’t know that was a bit of a tangent, but yeah, it would be interesting. I think the marketing mix is just…
Olly Hudson (27:57.489)
becoming more complex almost, right? It feels like it’s becoming more complex with more channels that can be meaningful for brands. And it’ll be interesting to see if that continues.
Moritz Schröder (28:06.96)
Yeah, it seems like almost never there’s channels that completely disappear. It’s just that attention shifts a little bit and more channels get added. But of course that’s an additional challenge for brands to then.
cater towards all these different channels that are out there and the number is only going up. How do you think about it from your agency perspective? Do you constantly want to explore new and exciting channels or have you really focused on nailing Meta and TikTok?
Olly Hudson (28:24.678)
Yeah.
Olly Hudson (28:40.144)
Yeah, we’ve, we’ve focused heavily on, those two, heavily on Facebook first meta first, because you’ve got a few variables when looking at growth levers for business, for an econ business. It’s like, you can either do new products, new markets or new sales channels or new distribution channels. And I think a lot of the times brands should show more restraint.
They should try and they should focus more on doing like one channel extremely well, because adding, you’re, if you’re scaling and growing on meta, can, you can often push that channel a lot further than you think. And adding in another channel like TikTok shop introduces a lot more operational complexity into the business. And
It should, I believe it should only really be done at the point where you’re very confident you can resource that, whether that’s internally or externally very well without seeing a degradation or a slowing down in growth through your other channels. so yeah, we’ve just been putting a lot of focus on, on meta because we think that with the right creative approach, it’s as powerful as ever. It’s still the lion share of spend for all of our brands and it’s still growing very quickly.
on a monthly basis for those who are doing it properly. then yeah, TikTok shop is obviously the, it’s like that opportunity point. It’s that, I’m trying to find the word, just under saturated so that there’s an untapped potential there to execute quickly and get very outsized returns for the amount of resource you put into the channel.
But I still think it’s, again, thinking about what separates the top 10 % of brands, they are just very good at focusing and becoming very, very good at a few things and reducing complexity and making sure that decisions to do new things like product and channel is really thought about and done with the most intention.
Moritz Schröder (30:50.785)
You just mentioned that you feel like TikTok shop is still under saturated, even though it’s been present in the UK for quite some time now. Does that show in the return of ad spend? If you compare it to Meta, are they pretty much on par these days? How does that look like on your end of the view?
Olly Hudson (31:13.171)
Yeah, I still think it’s like, under saturated in, in, some ways, there’s, there’s, it’s not as competitive as a, so say a meta algorithm. And I think you can see that in sort of CPMs, although that, that gap has been closing quite quickly. ROAS wise, like we always look at like, we need to achieve the ROAS that works for the business. So, we can, we can make TikTok work for brands.
In the same way we can make meta work based on their unit economics and what they need to achieve from a channel for it to make sense. I would say that TikTok one thing around TikTok shop that is worth noting is like. It is a lot more offer led. It is a channel that relies on offers. you cannot capture customer information in the way you can on a, on a, on a, on a website.
that has an impact on AOV and first time customer value. also has an impact on future value of those cohorts. So there’s a consideration around the type of customer you’re attracting, the offers that are required to drive that acquisition and how that then plays out for the business over time. But if you’re, if you can do the calculations and you set the strategy out for TikTok shop for your brand with intention.
I think it can be as powerful as Facebook in growing awareness and new customer revenue for sure right now.
Moritz Schröder (32:40.843)
I saw on your website while doing my research that you spend well over a million per month across your different DTC customers on ads. And to me as an outsider, that’s just a wild number to read. Can you break that down a little bit? Like what part of that amount goes into actually producing the ads? How much of it is just what you pay the platform to run the ads and how much is?
in the case of TikTok shop commissions that then go to the creators.
Olly Hudson (33:13.629)
So yeah, different platforms, we’re spending like about 30 million a month on Facebook right now. So we’re spending a lot on meta. Yeah, we’re spending a lot on meta and we’re making probably making between two to 5,000 ads a month, depending on how you look at that. And we’re creating those ads for clients and then putting them into the algorithm and that budget sort of sits separately to the spend.
Moritz Schröder (33:21.484)
- my god.
Olly Hudson (33:40.499)
So yeah, we’re moving a lot of volume on meta and it’s about how do we continue to grow spend on behalf of clients whilst achieving that, that, that CPA or cap target that, represents a good outcome for them on a customer by customer basis on TikTok. obviously it’s slightly different with a, from a spend and affiliate perspective. We’re, looking at it through the lens of like creating a
pretty clear plan and forecast whenever we’re working with a new brand on there. We’re setting out like we need to go aggressive in months one and two to generate volume. Volume is a signal to affiliates that this is a good brand to work with. You’re going to then create this flywheel effect of more creators, more content, more affiliates, ability to spend greater and greater amounts over time. So we’re setting quite aggressive commission structures month one to two.
really trying to generate success, generate that volume. And then we can sort of tear that down over time as we get that ecosystem set up. But yeah, in terms of splitting that out, lot of the spend that you see for us on TikTok is directed into the channel, into the ad platform. And we treat that budget for creators and created separately.
But obviously it can be quite heavily focused on just product seeding. So if you’ve got great gross margin, TikTok can be a very, a TikTok shop can be a very effective channel because you’re just seeding out a couple of hundred, three, 400 products a month, but then you’re getting that content back and that provides the engine for you to then spend and scale. So yeah, it’s all about trying to get that content engine working on channel in the first couple of months.
to allow us to then scale spend that aggressively.
Moritz Schröder (35:33.6)
And when you get on top of how the process looks like for affiliate creators and getting that flywheel going, is the strategy that you follow as straightforward as running meta ads, or is it always a little bit of guesswork and you kind of hope, especially when it’s a new DTC brand that you’re working with and they don’t have a TikTok shop presence as of yet, is it always a little bit of a…
challenge to get it going and you are not 100 % sure that it will actually take off.
Olly Hudson (36:11.924)
I think, yeah, we try and, we run a similar process in terms of like research into the product, into what messaging we think will drive conversion. And we use that to inform our briefs to affiliates in month one. There is a lot more variables that we can’t control in that process. Like we have to do a lot of outreach. We can leverage.
existing creator relations to help us accelerate that initial 30 to 60 days of, of seeding and, getting some initial momentum under affiliate relationships and, some initial volume from a content perspective. But there is a lot of manual work in finding affiliates, building those relationships, seeding those products, telling them, providing feedback on what content messaging is working.
In order for them to produce better output that will drive better performance for us. So yeah, there is a, there is a, I would say there’s a, there’s a more variables that we can’t control in that first couple of months than say a Facebook where we are making all of the content in house. We’re delivering that and we’ve got more predictability through our process. but yeah, I still think for the majority of brands we work with, we’re able to get that momentum. And then it’s about how do we.
translate that into a longer term strategy that builds like a real process around the platform and consistent ability to consistently scale. Yeah.
Moritz Schröder (37:49.962)
And how do you think this industry of affiliate creators and the role that they’re currently playing in social commerce will evolve over the next couple of years? Do you have any prediction? Do you see it continue to grow or do you think it’s going to hit a ceiling at some point where also the platform is getting so saturated with affiliate content that maybe they have to scale it back or at least cap it?
Olly Hudson (38:17.696)
I think there’s a big like problem with supply of creators right now on TikTok shop. actually think that’s one of the biggest bottlenecks is there’s not enough creators for the amount of brands that want to work, want to execute on the channel. So a lot of it’s like, how can you make them want to work with you? How can you set up the incentives, the structures? How can you give creators reasons to work with your brand and not someone else in the same category?
So I think that’s an immediate challenge that brands need to think about and overcome. It’s like, can you maybe build communities off channel, the way you can nurture those relationships and treat it less like transactional and more like a community and really like, really build, build relationships with those people who are providing a lot to your business. so, and I think we’re going to continue to see that the rise of that. I think the brands that are doing that the best in America, you look at like Gruns and you look at some of these.
some of these brands that have achieved crazy results consistently through the channel, they’ve got a huge community of creators where they educate them. The founders are doing educational sessions. They’re spending time on, Q and a’s webinars weekly, monthly to make sure that the creators feel like they’re getting the info they need to do the best work for the brands. and I think we’re going to continue to see that play out for the rest of this year and certainly next.
I think what TikTok shop has managed to do is like create like the perfect clarity and alignment between distribution through creators and, and the brands themselves. It’s very clear the impact they’re driving the way you’re able to pay, and foster those relationships. It’s very seamless. I think we’ll make, I think we’ll probably see that replicated in other channels. Like we’ve obviously seen YouTube launch their affiliate.
program, I’m not privy to how that’s actually played out. know Meta is doubling down on like creators, partnership ads, partnership ads are one of our biggest, has seen one of the biggest increases in percentage of spend in our ad accounts. So ads ran through a third party or a creator handle is driving, are driving incredible results right now. And that’s again, similar to that we’ve seen that.
Olly Hudson (40:40.639)
play out over last 12 months, like a real rise in third party white listing. And then even at the top of funnel, like I think we’ve seen creators become almost like the new media company in a way. Like it used to be these big publications, these big PR companies that, and magazines, et cetera, if you look 20 years ago, like those were the places that brands were going to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds to get distribution to audiences.
You’re now seeing these big creators act like, like that for brands at all ends, all sizes across the market, whether that’s celebrities, whether that’s macro midsize influences, like they are commanding really high fees for significant distribution for brands. think that’s something we’re just going to continue to see play out over the next 12 to 12 months, couple of years for sure.
Moritz Schröder (41:35.41)
That’s really interesting that you see the other social media platforms in some way or form trying to catch up with TikTok and their affiliate setup. I was actually not aware that Facebook is trying to do something similar. Do you think they have any chance to?
built the ecosystem that TikTok Shop already has in place. Because to me, it seems like it’s such a closed loop that TikTok Shop has been able to create. Also looking beyond just the creator space, but then also being able to have logistics and fulfillment, taking care of it, et cetera, et cetera. So to me, it seems like it would really take massive effort, both on YouTube’s end and on Meta’s end to catch up with TikTok Shop in that space.
Olly Hudson (42:03.22)
Yeah.
Olly Hudson (42:25.043)
Yeah, I don’t think they’ll get to that. A closed loop is a really good way to put it. think that’s, I don’t think they’re going to get to that level. I don’t think they’ll, they’ll build a platform that’s, that’s as sophisticated in that way as, TikTok have done, but they are, I do, I do think they are certainly trying to arm brands with better ways to work with creators that allows them to pull those creators into their market and ecosystem, discover creators to work with.
yeah, I think that they’re putting significant time and investment into that, but I don’t think it will be done in the same way as TikTok. No. but it’ll certainly be interesting to see if that changes.
Moritz Schröder (43:08.995)
One really interesting trend that people are seeing now when it comes to creators on those platforms and ways to monetize their content is that more more creators seem to be pushing into the D2C space. Some more successful, some less. Is that a trend that you’re seeing in the clients that you’re working with already? Or is that really just the top, top tier of creators that are going into that direction?
Olly Hudson (43:26.933)
Yep.
Olly Hudson (43:40.373)
Yeah, you’ve got like two different sides to that. think you’ve got like the people who are creating brands and then going to find creators to become like the face of that brand, which I think is a really in
Moritz Schröder (43:53.009)
Right, you got the Logan Paul case I kind of set up with Prime, for example.
Olly Hudson (43:56.277)
A hundred percent. And I think that’s a really interesting area. Then you’ve got the creators who are already a creator and are looking for new ways to monetize the attention that they’ve generated and producing products and brands as a way to achieve that objective. I ultimately think both of those can work really well if set up in the right way. And a lot of it’s just about the execution. I think the creator led brands, it’s often about like the
Like doing it for the right reasons and picking the right product and making sure that there’s like off authenticity is probably the word behind, behind that. Like you’re not just bringing out something for the sake of it. And you’re seeing, and I think the challenge with for them is like, how do they then build operations that produces consistent long-term growth? Because it’s okay having a really engaged audience, but
that’s going to produce like a really strong launch and spike. But I’ve seen that play out many times where it’s like that doesn’t then that doesn’t produce long-term scalable business growth. And that’s a, you really need to build the operation. Some of the bits we talked about earlier and, and build a real business within consumer to achieve that. So I think there’s, there’s examples of that being done very well. There’s also examples of that being done not so well, where they’ve not
been able to build that long-term business. The other side where, go on.
Moritz Schröder (45:29.806)
Yeah, I was just thinking, I think that’s the, the fallacy that a lot of creators that go into that DTC space then face that they think being able to create content around a product would be enough to make it a successful brand, which is absolutely not the case. You need to be a strong operator. have to have a good team around you that is able to support you in the fields that you’re not an expert in. And it seems like more often than not creators are ill-advised to go into it.
when they’re not fully committed to actually building a brand and they think they can just post on Instagram and that would be enough to drive a DTC brand to success.
Olly Hudson (46:09.906)
Exactly. I also think it’s very hard to build a brand off organic. just, it just very rarely, you have to have, you have to build a paid distribution engine. That’s just the world we live in. it’s, it’s often, it’s, it’s often diff, creators often don’t understand that world and don’t have the right people around them to make that transition. And that’s, that’s a bottleneck.
I think on the other side where you’re looking at brand operators, bringing in creators, I think I’m seeing more and more of that, like, and it’s really, really interesting to see that play out, like either giving equity or growth shares to someone who then becomes a face of the brand. and provides like, yeah, either a face, a distribution method, or even some like level of, credibility. So we’ve seen a real rise in like expert led brands, so where they’re bringing in.
nutritionalists, um, et cetera, et cetera, to, to, provide like credibility to a business. think that’s a, a really interesting play. Uh, again, I don’t think it’s a silver bullet. think it requires a lot more than that to make a successful business, but in a world where we’re increasingly seeing, we’re going to see an increasing amount of content generated by AI and probably a decrease in authenticity as a result of that.
Moritz Schröder (47:04.92)
Right.
Olly Hudson (47:31.414)
I think having a face that can provide credibility to a product and, um, a proof point that it’s delivering on its promise and it’s going to provide a good customer experience. I think he’s a really powerful thing if done correctly. Um, but again, it’s like, it’s not a silver bullet. It requires a lot more than just this, that to make that a success.
Moritz Schröder (47:54.841)
Yeah, it seems like it’s also a strong case for anyone who’s interested in making content to actually do that as uniquely as possible and be true to yourself, build a personal brand around it or through content. And then who knows, maybe you’re getting big enough that you can actually work with a DTC brand and get some equity and a partnership going.
Olly Hudson (48:17.623)
100%. I think personal brand is just so defensible, especially as we move into the world of AI gen content. It’s like people resonate with people and your authenticity and your brand as an individual can carry a lot of weight, I think, in that world, if done correctly.
Moritz Schröder (48:36.588)
Yeah, a hundred percent. And one of the reasons why I’m doing this podcast, I think that’s going to be valuable even more so in an AI world that we’re going to be living in more more going into the future. For any creator listening, what kind of setup with a DTC brand do you think would be most
Olly Hudson (48:40.149)
Yeah.
Moritz Schröder (48:59.338)
successful to make sure that the DTC brand is able to grow with your background. What were the kinds of DTC brands that you saw succeed, especially maybe if they work very closely with creators or are even creator led.
Olly Hudson (49:15.319)
Is this from like a content perspective or more of like an ownership perspective?
Moritz Schröder (49:20.692)
Yeah, generally, like how those creators would be thinking about D2C if they want to set themselves up for success and maybe also be able to spot the winners early on.
Olly Hudson (49:34.722)
Good question. think looking at TikTok shop, it’s about, think it’s all about picking the, you want to be trying to work with the brands with the best product. think it all comes down to like strength of products and longevity and the ability to last in a market and grow longer terms. You want to be looking for the, for the businesses that are already doing well.
that you know that you’re be able to work with once, but then there’s a likelihood that they’re gonna sound the test of time and you can really buy into them. Like I think the more that you give brands, the more that they’ll give back to you in terms of rewards, in terms of incentives, in terms of whether that’s even just like moving on to retainer deals. Like I think if you’re able to produce an outcome and I say outcome.
In the sense of sales and direct revenue, like if you’re able to prove that you can do that consistently for brands, like you are, you have a lot of pricing power and you’re a very valuable asset for the brands. you, I think that sets you up for success. It’s all about delivering on that first. I think there’s just so much content requirement. I think that’s just going to continue to grow. So I think there’s a
A big opportunity to lean into that on Facebook as well. think partnership ads, like creating amazing content and working with brands on a partnership ad basis where they run that through your account. Maybe that becomes a full funnel where the landing page then has your story about how you use that product. Like we’re seeing that play out more and more. And I think that’s a really strong way to engage with brands. And then if you’re looking more on like, if you’re more of an established creator and you’re looking more for like a brand to
to put your name on and really work with. I think that comes down to alignment of culture, alignment of the people in the project, the idea to yourself as an individual, making sure that those fundamentals stack up first and just making sure that they’re really in it. And there are operators that are building this for the long-term because it’s going to be a few years that you’re working on that project. It’s not a short-term decision.
Moritz Schröder (51:43.511)
Right. With social media becoming more more important, from a brand perspective, do you see brands where it’s just very hard for them to get things off the ground on social media because of the kind of services or products that they’re selling? Attention span is getting shorter and shorter. It’s becoming more more visual how you engage with your customers.
Do you recommend any company to try out social media ads, et cetera, or are there some where you feel like, with this kind of product, you’re really gonna have a tough time finding your audience.
Olly Hudson (52:31.768)
That’s a good question.
Olly Hudson (52:37.976)
Not though, they definitely won’t not in consumer. think social media is definitely still one of the best, like the best place to be, to be spending marketing budget. especially in that like zero to one phase, that early growth phase, I think it’s the, it’s the highest ROI. It provides the shortest feedback loops, which is really important. Like early on, you’re not just paying for results. You’re paying to learn. And you can do that with a lot smaller budget on
On channels like TikTok and better than you can on other distribution medium. So I still fundamentally believe that social is the best place to show up for brands in 2025. I don’t think, I don’t see that changing into 2026. I think it’s about how, how do you execute for your product, for your business? beyond, beyond consumer, I think that holds probably for some categories. There are other categories where you maybe you’d start in a different channel, like a Google.
If you’re more like lower funnel demand capture, but yeah, I think there’s still tons of opportunity to be had on, on these social platforms. even in the last half of this year, have a lot of conversations internally around many brands still aren’t that great at Facebook ads. It’s like, we’re, quite far. there’s the, and that project presents an opportunity, right? If you can really execute in a way that, that aligns with what gets the most out of the channel, you can still produce.
outsize returns like you could many years ago by just doing that the right way.
Moritz Schröder (54:10.594)
obviously great for someone like you and your agency that there are so many brands out there that are still not able to do this in-house and fantastic that you’re providing these services to them then. Do you think we’re going to see an influx in brands that are particularly built to look good on short form media, for example, TikTok native brands that just create products that pop and
Olly Hudson (54:13.548)
Yeah.
Moritz Schröder (54:39.82)
capture attention and are maybe particularly easy to demonstrate in affiliate and UGC content? Or is that something that will not prevail?
Olly Hudson (54:52.268)
I think we’ve seen that already to some degree. don’t know if I’ve, I’ve certainly bought some useless things from TikTok shop, like vegetable cutters or like, just things that I’m like scrolling like 10 PM and I’m like, I’ll just buy this cause it’s, it’s captured my attention. It’s really interesting. So I think there’s, yeah, I think there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of brands already operating and executing on that like impulse.
Moritz Schröder (54:58.891)
Hahaha
Olly Hudson (55:19.272)
leveraging that impulse purchase, either building that wow factor into the product or really playing into that like problem solution marketing. So yeah, I think we’ll see that continue, it’s, it’s about looking at the issue with that brand is like when looking at those brands as maybe someone to work with from a creative perspective or
Just thinking about them, it’s like longer term. It’s like, can’t just be selling gimmicky products because they’re just going to acquire customers who then never come back and purchase again. And great brands are built on repeat customer revenue, not just a first time purchase. And obviously there’s outliers to that, but I think, yeah, we met, I think we’ve seen that occur, but it’s, it’s, it’s the brands that can really build products that provide a great customer experience that.
become iconic consumer brands over a 10 year time horizon. So yeah, I think there’s a balance to be struck there for sure.
Moritz Schröder (56:18.955)
So in sense of sustainability, it’s just not there for the brands that are going for 90 % gimmicky products and then maybe the actual added value to the customer is just not enough to make them come back.
Olly Hudson (56:32.906)
Yeah, I think you don’t want to be too reliant on just one time purchase for sure. Yeah. Everybody’s been burnt by something they bought off the internet and it turns up and it’s like, what is this? Like you don’t want to be, that’s not the, it’s not what we want to be putting out to the market.
Moritz Schröder (56:50.182)
No, exactly. And I think that’s in a way good news for anyone who’s in it for the long run and who works in that space professionally, like you and I do, that these brands will not prevail. And it will kind of weed out the bad ones and the ones that are actually taking things very seriously and care about customer feedback, care about retention, care about…
providing the best possible value for customers will be the ones that ultimately will be successful.
Olly Hudson (57:24.406)
Yeah, 100%. 100%.
Moritz Schröder (57:27.712)
Cool. Oli, thanks so much for joining this conversation. Where do you want to redirect people? Where can they check out you, your agency, and potentially get in touch about working together?
Olly Hudson (57:40.96)
Yeah, thanks for having me on. think Oli Hudson on LinkedIn, or we also have a podcast, DTC Diaries on YouTube as well. So those would be a great place to get to know us better and a great place to reach out if you want to have a chat about working together. Yeah, thank you very much.
Moritz Schröder (57:59.154)
Awesome. Pleasure to be chatting with you today.
Olly Hudson (58:01.475)
Thank you. Cheers.